From: Dick Ellis

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Damn, I thought I was the only broadcaster with six Bronze Stars. Know that I respect your strict adherence to the code of silence for the good General but do question being a silent broadcaster?

From: Dick Ellis

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Most of the spec 7's were in the medical field...I remember seeing them at Ft. Bragg's Wamack Army Hospital....also several were in the intelligence field...I can't swear to it but I think I saw a Spec 8 once...down around the Green Bennie center at Bragg. Dickie. .....I was promoted to spec 5 when I was made special assistant to General Westmoreland... Sorry, I can't talk about it today!!! I have several Bronze stars and a Navy Cross but I am not allowed to wear them today. Actually, JoeC explained to me it was a navy X not a Navy Cross...but I am sure they are the same....

From: Frank Rogers

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Dickie, suh, That was fast.. At least you didn't have to go the "Shake and Bake" route during Vietnam, where from basic you could go to advanced school and come out an E-6 with orders to an infantry type unit in Vietnam. But, we had one at Camp Drake who escaped the Vietnam assignment somehow. Meanwhile we had a Lt. who wanted to get to Vietnam for his record.

Navy promotion was based on completing leadership and rating courses then passing a service wide test. I was E-5 in about three years and thought I was good. In my rate, promotion was close to 100% for those passing the exam, and everybody on the ship in my rate made E-6 in under four.... However, when I was to take the test in February, the time in grade was upped by a year and I got out before the next test.

Now, my "little" brother dropped out of ninth grade three times and joined as a "Kiddie Cruiser," joining before the 18th birthday and you got out on your 21st. He liked working with his hands and not "them books." In under three years he was E-5 drawing pro pay for E-6. Very good at passing the tests for someone who didn't like books. He retired as a Chief. Should have been E-8 but Admin didn't do his promotion papers properly and didn't get it before retirement because of "Administrative Failure." He was just told not his fault but, "sorry, too late to correct it."

FrankR

From: Bob Nelson

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Technically they are a Specialist Four, five, etc. The (sp?) Cordiner Commission changed the ranks from T ranks to specialist. They also added E8 and E9. I can only remember knowing one Sp 7. Yes there are Corporals (E4) and again, technically, they have NCO authority and they still exist primarily in the combat arms.

Bob Nelson

[NB: The spelling of Cordiner is correct, but it was a "Committee." Also, while there may be a connection between the old T ranks and the new Specialist ranks, it was over a period of time. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technician_Fifth_Grade, the T ranks were abolished in 1948. The specialist ratings were established in June 1955. The "super grades" as they were called at the time and the revision to the lower rocker system (I.E., an E-6 was no longer a two-rocker SFC but a one-rocker SSG) began in April 1958. JimW]

From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Brian, I'm fairly sure that is an urban legend.

Jim W

From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

Brian, I'm fairly sure that is an urban legend.

Jim W

From: Bob Morecook

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Hi Jim I was a Specialist Five at the end. My understanding was that it was Five and not Fifth Class.

Bob M

[NB: Bob may be right. My memory isn't that good at the moment. JimW]

From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Frank, Tell me more about "blood stripes." I went from Sp2 (E-5) to SFC (E-6, two rockers) thanks to a blood stripe promotion at Fort Ord, CA in January 1958. What a jump! Because, as an Sp2 (E-5), I was outranked by Corporals (E-4). To make a long story short, I was assigned to a personnel section who had a drunk for a personnel sergeant and after I had been there about six weeks the Battalion Commander gave me his stripes. That was just two months before the E-8/9 system started, otherwise I would have been an E-6 with just one rocker. I stayed a "two rocker E-6 SFC" until I made SFC again (this time E-7 but still with just two rockers) in October 1965 (nearly eight years later). This was after I had gotten to Fort Belvoir. Most of those "dry years" I was with Hqs, US Forces Japan at Fuchu Air Station--a situation not all that different from FEN. The Army contingent was so small that no almost allocations for promotions ever came down. I recall one Army promotion to Sp5, E-5 and then another one for promotion to SFC E-7. I think that both of them were in 1963. I lost out on the one to E-7 because just before the allocation came down, another Army SFC E-6, with perhaps two more months in grade than I, had arrived and was able to grab it. In summary, USFJ had just two Army promotion allocations in the five years and three months I was with that unit. When I went before the local promotion board at Fort Belvoir for SFC E-7 (I had been at Fort Belvoir for only about 10 days at that time), I walked into a waiting room with perhaps 30 or so other "hopefuls" but I was the only one with two rockers. One of the "hopefuls" later became a good friend and he told me that when I walked into the room, everyone thought to themselves "Well, he's going to be first on the list, wonder who will be second?" But once the log jam was broken, I went to MSG E-8 in June 1966 (just 7 months and 23 days later--partly in thanks to a snow storm) and then made SGM E-9 in just over another four years. All of my promotions, except to SGM were local promotions. I never really understand why a senior NCO would want to be a 2nd Lt either. In my case, however, when I was an E-8 at Fort Belvoir, I did try for a direct commission to Captain, O-3. It wasn't approved however, because I already had over 10 years of active duty and therefore couldn't complete 10 years active as an officer before I reached a possible mandatory retirement at 20 years total active duty. Strange rule, but that is the way it was. A historical note: Above, I mentioned I was promoted from Sp2 (E-5). That is not a typo and at 1730 I am not drunk. When the specialist ratings first came out in June 1955, they were

E-7 Master Specialist (echoing Master Sergeant?)

E-6 Specialist First Class (echoing Sergeant First Class?)

E-5 Specialist Second Class

E-4 Specialist Third Class

Then, I think that with the introduction of the E-8/9 Super Grades in April 1958, they were changed to:

E-7 Specialist 7th Class

E-6 Specialist 6th Class

E-5 Specialist 5th Class

E-4 Specialist 4th Class In my years

in the Army, I don't think I ever saw more than a half-dozen E-6 or E-7 Specialists--and they were invariably in military intelligence units. I don't know when the change was made, but from several years back I began to realize that when I went to Camp Zama I wasn't seeing any Specialist 5th Class insignia so I finally asked. Today the only specialist rating is Specialist 4th Class (who are now simply called "Specialist"). Another change in Army ranks is that there is now a Chief Warrant Officer W-5. That chain used to stop at W-4.

Jim W

From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Steve, There is, it is rather long, and regardless if anyone is interested or not--here it is. I was in the Army Reserves from June 1951 through June 1953. Made Corporal, E-4. Volunteered for active duty in June 1953, two days after my 19th birthday. By volunteering rather than waiting for the draft, I was able to keep my corporal stripes. In the 10th Infantry Division at Fort Riley, KS, I went through basic as a squad leader and through clerical school as the class leader. Then was assigned as a company clerk to one of the Field Artillery Batteries (Truck Drivers' School). This was in late 1953. In mid-February 1954, the First Sergeant came out with a very stern "The CO wants to see you." Wondering what the heck I had done wrong, I did as ordered and the Captain proceeded to pin a set of Sergeant, E-5 (one rocker) stripes on me. Very much a surprise, and a pleasant one at that. [Note, the specialist and E-8/E-9 grades had yet to be invented.] This made me a member of the "Top Three."

Not too long afterwards, we learned that the 10th Infantry was going to be phased out as a training division and we all would most likely be "reassigned somewhere." Also, I heard of SCARWAF. This stood for "Special Category Army Reassigned with Air Force" and consisted mainly of Army construction engineer units, transferred at the Dept. of Army/Air Force level to the Air Force. I was told it was a good deal because it got one out of the normal day-to-day chicken/bull/horse/whatever s--- of the Army. So, I volunteered for SCARWAF in the Far East.

Went to Japan by troopship (mixed Army and Air Force personnel). Spent three days at the old Fuchu Air Station, which was, at the time, an Air Force replacement center and then flew (C-124 Globemaster) from Tachikawa Air Base to Taegu and then on to Osan in Korea. Still mixed Army/Air Force enlisted, we were bused to the 934th Engineer Aviation Group headquarters. The next day I was assigned to Company C, 840th Engineer Aviation Battalion (EAB or "Everything Ass-Backwards").

Company C was typical of the EAB units of the day. Our CO was an Army 1st Lt, the XO/Supply Officer was an Air Force 2nd Lt. The Mess Sergeant and his staff were Air Force, the small medical detachment attached to us was also Air Force and we had a half-dozen Air Force E-5/6/7's who were Equipment Maintenance NCO's, etc. But the rest of the company, what one might call the "worker bees" were all Army and all E-4 and below. All of these Air Force NCO's, some old enough to be my father, swore up and down that "they weren't going to be First Sergeant of this ARMY company." So, since I was the "ranking Army enlisted man," had experience working in an orderly room, as well as minimal experience as as squad leader and class leader, plus I had been under a good First Sergeant at Riley and pretty well knew the ropes--here I do be--some three weeks short of my 20th birthday and a real live (all-be-it with E-5 pay and stripes) First Sergeant!

I held the position for four months and then an Army SFC (E-6 / two rockers) showed up and took over. From my rather prejudiced point of view I think that I did a reasonably good job for those four months--at least I don't remember the CO ever calling me in for "guidance."

As somewhat of a footnote. In June 1966, while working as the Brigade S-1 NCO at Fort Belvoir, I made E-8 (with only 7 months and 23 days in grade--but that's another story). Many of the other E-8's were honestly concerned that without at least a little experience as a first sergeant, I wouldn't make E-9. All I could say was "been there, done that." And, I must have been right because I made SGM E-9 in December 1970 with just 17 1/2 years active duty.

Jim W

PS: I know full well my story isn't as glorious as the stories of those who were given battlefield promotions and commissions. Therefore, my apologies to anyone with that kind of record.

From: Franklin Rogers

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Good story.. The "old Army" had some strange ways. There were the "blood stripes" where you got the stripes of someone who was busted in the unit. A lot of "acting jacks" [Acting Sergeants] because promotions were hard to come by. It was strange to see SGT stripes gone and replaced by an SP4 eagle on a man being transferred. He had not been demoted, had just been "acting" in the unit. Those days, there had to be a vacancy IN THE UNIT for you to be promoted. I worked with a SP5, excellent soldier, who had a dozen years in grade. Finally, at Ft Hood, he was transferred across the field to another unit where there was an opening and he was promoted immediately to Staff Sgt. When I saw him in Japan a few SHORT years later he was E-9. The Army eventually went to promotions service wide, and would transfer you to fill an opening elsewhere if you were promoted. At FEN in 1968, there was an Army E-7 with date of rank 1945. He brought the rank with him from the Negro Corps and never got promoted again, as far as I know. FEN would not even send him to a promotion board, but why, is another story. Being Army in an Air Force run unit was not an ideal spot for promotions. Their evaluation system was very unfair. One SP5 consistently got top scores on the pro pay test, with letters of commendation,but because of the way the AF supervisors rated him, he never got promoted, and eventually got out. Big loss to the Army. And for being commissioned, none of us at Language School could understand why a Marine E-8 would accept a commission and demotion to Second Lt.

Roger

From: Steve Wiltsie

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

OK, how does a 19 year old become a First Sergeant????? I’ll bet there is a story about this, Jim.

Steve Wiltsie

From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: Promotions and Demotions

Getting VD three times during the Korean War and early post-cease fire era didn't get you a purple heart--it gave you a summary courts-martial, a quick "promotion" to E-2 and perhaps up to three months forfeiture of all pay and allowances. I guess the rational was that if you were doing this to yourself, you were also affecting your combat readiness and ability to perform your job. I remember this well because (1) as a 19-year-old First Sergeant I was signing the sick-call slips for the guys who had to go to the dispensary for their three-days of penicillin shots in the b----, and (2) while working as a finance clerk in a battalion personnel section, I had to arrange for such poor souls to get at least $10 a month for necessities during the period they weren't getting paid. (BTW, the $10 a month was a loan, and had to be paid back once the guy went back to regular pay, all-be-it E-2, pay and allowances. And, an E-2, with under two years service, got a grand $85.80 a month in those days.) And, now going on to a more "medical tangent." Gonorrhea, other than making one want to scream while urinating, was basically not all that bad. Three pin pricks in the rear and one was normally cured. However, if one tried to "hide it" and didn't get it treated (and many tried that), then it could turn nasty. One result was that the scrotum would turn a purplish blue. Everyone was very frightened of coming down with "blue balls." I know of one doctor who never had a VD patient come back for a second round of shots. He used a tincture of some kind that was absolutely benign but, when applied, would turn one's skin a purplish blue. Any time he had a VD patient, he would use this stuff to quietly paint the poor guy's scrotum. Later, the guy would notice that he had "blue balls" and most likely nearly faint right on the spot. But, at the same time, he also usually swore off of "paddy hoping." Memories are great as one gets older--now if I could just remember what I had for dinner last night!

Jim W

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From: Jim White

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Frank, As I wrote in my message to Bob, I think this might be the definite page on Army ranks, past and present: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/UniformedServices/Insignia_Rank/enlisted_history.aspx#top.

Unfortunately, while it states that the Specialist Eight and Nine grades were discontinued in 1965 it doesn't say when the Specialist Seven, Six and Five disappeared. However, it also states that the "one chevron plus one arc was authorized for the rank of PFC, E-3 in 1968 and I really don't remember that either. However, according to http://www.3ad.com/history/at.ease/army.ranks.htm, SP5 through SP7 wsre discontinued in 1985. I agree that everything called a "Specialist" was above a PFC only in pay and not much else. However, my take was that Corporal and Sergeant stripes were for those "in command positions" which didn't necessarily mean "combat" (even if most of the E-4 and E-5 "in command positions" were also in "combat" units). That would explain the SGT Medical Records Clerk at Camp Drake. Which brings another stray brain cell to the fore: Did you ever meet an SFC Loyd Hoenshell? He was an Army Dental Technician at Camp Drake in the early 1960's. He was certainly a "specialist in his field" but he was also the NCOIC of the Dental Clinic. I certainly agree with the idea of making the Navy Petty Officer insignia larger. However, the same goes for Army insignia. After I finally got used to looking just below the neck for anyone wearing Army combat fatigues, I discovered that it was so small that I couldn't tell their rank (particularly for two versus three rockers, or SGM versus CSM, etc.) without bending over and saying "Excuse me" as I get my magnifying glass out of my pocket. And I doubly agree with the problem of the Major/LtCol oak leaf problem. I ended up calling a LtCol a Major for 10 minutes because that black oak leaf on her combat fatigues. Her insignia was a black oak leaf which means LtCol versus a gold oak leaf for a Major. Is this because silver tarnishes but gold doesn't?

Jim

From: Brian Wickham

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

When I was in the Army, 1967-69, the word was that if you ran into a corporal he was a sergeant who got busted one grade. "They" said you couldn't get busted from hard five to sp4.

Brian Wickham

From: Dick Ellis

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: Spec 5 or Striper

I was told a stripe always took over a Spec rank. I was a Spec 5 and asked if I could put on "buck" sgt stripes instead and they said no...not unless you have an Infantry MOS.... I was always told an E-5 stripe outranked me.... I made E-5 in 19-months total service....they would give it to anybody!!!!

dickie Official War Hero

From: Frank Rogers

Sent: Aug 3, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Jim, Yes, they (E4) are just called Specialist. I don't know if they are outranked by Corporal, because I haven't even heard of an Army Corporal in recent years, so, maybe there are none. Why not make all E4s Corporal? As for the original design, it would have been best to have an inverted chevron below the eagle instead of the sissy loop over the top. Even now, they should have two chevrons below for E4, if they insist on having the Specialist, if that wouldn't cause confusion to Navy types who see two chevrons as E5. This entire Specialist system was "second class citizenship" in my opinion. The original idea was NCOs were only for combat ratings, and a Corporal with 20 months outranking an SP9 with 25 years.
(I never saw an SP9, but there were some on paper, at least.) At Camp Drake there was a Medical Records Clerk who was a SGT because the theory was he had to "command" troops, and thus outranked a Combat Weapons Infantryman who was an SP4. The entire idea sucked. Try for the confusion in Tri-service units because inter-service the ranking went by pay grade. Navy PO3 outranked by an SP5, who is outranked by an Army Corporal, but not really because it is Tri-service. Another aside from the Old Army ... At some posts you were ineligible for promotion unless you went through that post's NCO Academy, no matter how many times you had been through an Academy at other posts. And then there were the RIFed officers who took the enlisted rank to finish out their years to retirement. Some were able to cope, but at Ft Eustis where was a former Colonel who was constantly drunk and raving all night in the barracks. I was transferred to Korea, but I doubt very seriously he was able to make it to retirement. More currently, the Navy MUST change to large chevrons under a small eagle because it is too difficult to determine how many chevrons there are. A PO3 looks too much like a Navy Captain. Or eliminate the eagle and have the rating symbol above the large chevrons. There is the entire "creeping egalitarianism" with enlisted ranks on collars and shoulders, a la officers, instead of on sleeves. With combat dress having black devices, how can you tell the one bar and one oak leaf rank? Make it two oak leaves for Lt Col. One bar is not that much difference. But then, no one put me in charge.

Frank R

From: Bob Morecook

Sent: Aug 2, 2012

Subject: First Sergeant at 19

Hi Jim I was a Specialist Five at the end. My understanding was that it was Five and not Fifth Class.

Bob M

[NB: Bob may be right. My memory isn't that good at the moment. JimW]